Are the Detroit Three wrapped around Ron's Gettelfinger?

just curious, Justin, but are you covered by a collective bargaining contract? Or, if not, is your salary based on wage standards set by other collective bargaining contracts in your field?

I ask because your willingness to see working people screwed (while supporting the bailout of fat cat wall street types) is a perfect case of "voting against your own economic interests" -- unless, of course "your own economic interests" are based on representing the interests of Dick Parsons and Jeff Bewkes?

Universal health care, or at least non-employer linked health insurance and a viable replacement for social security would pretty much put Detroit on an even footing with foreign companies. This is true for pretty much every single industry in America.
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So why are Republicans, who more closely align with the business class, so opposed to those types of reforms? I've always wondered.
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Also, yeah, Gettlefinger and the UAW own the Big 3.

BTW Justin...

according to the UAW,
"In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor."
http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

you cited a link from a far-right "economist" who claims that GM labor costs were $73.26/hour.

rather than bitch and moan about people who make $27.81/hr, why don't you explain what percentage of the cost of the average car goes to union labor -- and how much goes into paying lobbyists, executives, and on advertising in outlets like Time Warner?

"and one of these days I'll fall off."
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Once the checks from your recent book start rolling in?
Cograts btw, look forward to it being released.

plukasiak,
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Labor costs and wages are very, very separate things. Wages are the amount of money you earn. What your paycheck is before taxes.
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Labor costs are how much it costs the company to employ you. That includes things like non-wage benefits, such as retirement plans and health insurance. In this case, both numbers are correct. GM's labor cost per employee is $73.26/hour. The workers cash compensation per hour is $27.81.

Justin, "pensions" and "health care....to retirees" should NOT be factored into the equation when one is considering whether "labor" is getting too much. RETIREES ARE NOT LABOR -- they're retired, and while they may subtract from a company's bottom line, they have NOTHING to do with the question of whether WORKERS should be conceding more.

The Big Three obviously made what, in hindsight, were bad decisions decades ago in terms of what it would provide RETIRED workers. But we're talking about decisions made DECADES ago -- and while you defend bailouts for wall street fatcats whose greed and corruption brought this economy to the brink of destruction, you desperately spin the question of bailing out AMERICAN companies that provide good jobs for AMERICAN WORKERS because of decisions whose consequences could not have been anticipated.

I think its also important to keep in mind that providing health care benefits for the big three is much more expensive than for the foreign companies because the big three's workforce is MUCH OLDER. Its also important, when looking at wages, to remember what it costs to sustain the same lifestyle for Big Three workers, and those who work for the "transplants" -- In other words, you're attitude seems to be "screw older workers because they cost more, and screw the entire "rust belt" because historical racism played a huge role in providing a massive force of cheap labor in the south where companies like Toyota put most of their manufacturing plants.

The easiest way to "bail out" the big three is to do what Sean seems to be suggesting -- single-payer health care, and a federally guaranteed decent standard of living for retirees. We CAN afford to do that -- if we stop bailing out Paulson's wall street cronies.

plukasiak,
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Actually, for a company operating under current accounting rules, they HAVE to factor retirees into labor costs. Also, retirees are labor. Their benefits are basically deferred pay. You can either account for it when they're working, or after they retire when you pay it out. But it still has to be accounted for somewhere. If the Big 3 stopped counting current retirees paid out benefits and instead started counting current workers' earned but unpaid benefits, the per hour figure wouldn't change all that much.
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The unions made just as many bad decisions about long term contracts as management did. The assumption by so many people that these bad agreements are all managements fault is something I've always found odd. The union is supposed to look out for its members, both long and short term. Killing the company they work for isn't looking out for your guys.
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The real problem of course, is that the Big 3 were supposed to keep growing at the rates they did during the '60s and '70s when these deals were made, and since then they've shrunk instead. With less overall revenue, and lower absolute profits, there's less money to pay the fixed costs of an ever growing legion of retirees.
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The other issue, which you hint at, is the seniority system that makes older workers so much more expensive. Someone who's been working on the line for 25 years might be 5% or 10% more productive than someone who's been on the line for 2 years. The problem is that 25 year guy makes 50% more than the 2 year guy. Meaning the 25 year guy, despite being more productive, is at least 40% less efficient.
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This is why I (and many others) hate the mandatory raises and seniority system which permeates just about every union on the planet. All these deals were struck at a time when Detroit was at its zenith of monopolization. Inefficiencies and flaws were hidden by the lack of competition. Planned obsolescence and cars that only lasted three years were the norm. Factory workers hated their jobs because they were boring and repetitive and there was no bottom up input, so retirement got lowered to 55. None of those factors exist today and the competitive landscape has radically changed. The contracts and obligations haven't. Neither have the attitudes.
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I do agree on the health care bit. I'm not a fan of a federally guaranteed standard of living. But something does need to be done with all the old people that don't have any marketable skills. They're going to be a ridiculous drain on the economy and the current labor force no matter what. The key is figure out how to minimize their impact.

THE ANSWER IS THROW EM IN THE BIN (Ode to Big Auto)
(Blowing in the Wind, Bob Dylan)
WilliamBanzai7

How many times must Big Auto beg for cash
Before you tell them to scram?
Yes, n how many bailout bucks must get squandered and trashed
Before they seep into the Arabian sand?
Yes, n how many gas hogs should we allow to drive by
Before theyre forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is throw em in the bin,
The answer is throw em in the bin.

How many times must Rick Wagoneer cry
Before we explode his bailout pie in the sky?
Yes, n how many inches must John Dingell's nose grow
Before he can admit its a huge sham?
Yes, n how many Prius' and Lexus' must we buy
Before we admit MOTOWN died long ago?
The answer, my friend, is throw em in the bin,
The answer is throw em in the bin.

How many years can Detroit's unionized brontosaurs exist
Before their washed to the sea?
Yes, n how many years can General Motors clunkers exist
After all they're rusty and cheap.
Yes, n how many times can Joe Consumer turn his head,
Pretending he just doesnt see?
The answer, my friend, is throw em in the bin,
The answer is throw em in the bin.

Sean, it wasn't the unions who decided to not set aside sufficient funds to pay retirees -- the unions negotiated retirement benefit levels, it was management that decided where that money would come from (i.e. management decided to keep stock prices high by deferring retirement costs).

Moreover, you're dead wrong about the UAW and seniority rules. All workers wind up getting COLA-type increases under the contract... and in each new contract entry level wages are renegotiated. And while the UAW's concession to allow significantly lower entry level and "full rate" wages for new workers created a "two tier" system, the big difference is related to grandfathering, not "seniority" (there is relatively little difference between the wages of workers doing the same jobs based on seniority WITHIN each tier.)

Seniority does provide other benefits under UAW contracts (preferred jobs and shifts, for example), but in terms of productivity, UAW seniority rules don't make much of a difference.

My point about the age of Big Three workers and health care was related to the fact that OLDER people cost more to insure than younger ones do -- and the work force at the foreign transplant factories is younger than that of the average UAW worker.

And again, I think its crucial to emphasize the role that racism has played in the hostility toward unions in the South -- and the resultant lower prevailing wages there which attract the non-union foreign 'transplant' factories. People who complain about wages earned at auto plants in the south compared those in union shops in places like detroit are (perhaps unconsciously) endorsing racial discrimination, because it was fear of black empowerment that resulted in the south's sucessful efforts to prevent unionization of its work force -- and now foreign companies are exploiting the impact of that racism.

The Detroit 3 have themselves partly to blame – poor planning, ill-conceived strategy, just name it.

Like a crazy pendulum swinging out of control, the global stock markets had gone insane. Now that Dow dives below 8000 points (Nov. 19, 2008), Nikkei follows suit, and FTSE goes further south to near 4000 points, one wonders what will be next? Absolutely threatening and scary! Don't even think about 2009.

Did G20 achieve anything? Sadly, nothing much accomplished.
Not unlike most other international meetings of Head of states, the outcome does not add anything new to what people have not already known. At the moment, each nation has its own priority, more concerned with what it can do to calm its violent economic turbulence. More so, the heads are deeply preoccupied with their own worries and fears.

The guilty politicians (plus financial gurus) do seem to get themselves detached (albeit not that completely) from the ugliest swindle of all time.
(Tan Boon Tee)

plukasiak,
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Hmm. Most of my first hand union experience comes from buddies that work for the government/police and from when I was a teamster driving a forklift in a warehouse. (actually, I got fired from forklift driving to pallet loading fairly quickly, funny story, but not really relevant here) The UAW must use a different system.
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As far as the higher Big 3 worker age hurting them, it does so but only insofar as they have a lot more retirees and legacy costs. Yeah, the premiums on the older workforce are higher, but not anywhere near enough to matter when compared to the legacy retiree costs.
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I'd also disagree with you about the unions being blameless in the accounting methods and set-asides. You think the UAW doesn't have any accountants working for them, going over the Big 3's books?* You think that how the benefits were going to be paid for wasn't part of the negotiations when they were awarded? I don't know the story of those negotiations, but there are two basic possibilities. 1) the UAW knew about and agreed with the payment and accounting plans - both sides expected the industry to keep growing, and the automakers did put aside more than enough if that had happened. 2) the UAW completely ignored this part of the deal in an example of total and gross misconduct. I lean towards #1 personally, just because it makes the most sense and attributes everyone with basic levels of competence.
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I don't know enough of the specifics or history to really comment either way on your assertions regarding racism and unions in the South.
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*I know the UAW actually does keeps some Wall Street accountants on retainer to do exactly this sort of thing to make sure the companies aren't crying "we're poor!" when they're actually not.